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25-12-2007 11:28Flere og Flere videnskabsmænd sætter spørgsmålstegn ved global opvarmining
galoredk

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U.S. Senate Report: Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007

Senate Report Debunks "Consensus"

INTRODUCTION:

Over 400 prominent scientists from more than two dozen countries recently voiced significant objections to major aspects of the so-called "consensus" on man-made global warming. These scientists, many of whom are current and former participants in the UN IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change), criticized the climate claims made by the UN IPCC and former Vice President Al Gore.


The new report issued by the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee's office of the GOP Ranking Member details the views of the scientists, the overwhelming majority of whom spoke out in 2007.



Even some in the establishment media now appear to be taking notice of the growing number of skeptical scientists. In October, the Washington Post Staff Writer Juliet Eilperin conceded the obvious, writing that climate skeptics "appear to be expanding rather than shrinking." Many scientists from around the world have dubbed 2007 as the year man-made global warming fears "bite the dust." (LINK) In addition, many scientists who are also progressive environmentalists believe climate fear promotion has "co-opted" the green movement. (LINK)


This blockbuster Senate report lists the scientists by name, country of residence, and academic/institutional affiliation. It also features their own words, biographies, and weblinks to their peer reviewed studies and original source materials as gathered from public statements, various news outlets, and websites in 2007. This new "consensus busters" report is poised to redefine the debate.


Many of the scientists featured in this report consistently stated that numerous colleagues shared their views, but they will not speak out publicly for fear of retribution. Atmospheric scientist Dr. Nathan Paldor, Professor of Dynamical Meteorology and Physical Oceanography at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, author of almost 70 peer-reviewed studies, explains how many of his fellow scientists have been intimidated.



"Many of my colleagues with whom I spoke share these views and report on their inability to publish their skepticism in the scientific or public media," Paldor wrote. [Note: See also July 2007 Senate report detailing how skeptical scientists have faced threats and intimidation - LINK ]



Scientists from Around the World Dissent



This new report details how teams of international scientists are dissenting from the UN IPCC's view of climate science. In such nations as Germany, Brazil, the Netherlands, Russia, New Zealand and France, nations, scientists banded together in 2007 to oppose climate alarmism. In addition, over 100 prominent international scientists sent an open letter in December 2007 to the UN stating attempts to control climate were "futile." (LINK)



Paleoclimatologist Dr. Tim Patterson, professor in the department of Earth Sciences at Carleton University in Ottawa, recently converted from a believer in man-made climate change to a skeptic. Patterson noted that the notion of a "consensus" of scientists aligned with the UN IPCC or former Vice President Al Gore is false. "I was at the Geological Society of America meeting in Philadelphia in the fall and I would say that people with my opinion were probably in the majority."


This new committee report, a first of its kind, comes after the UN IPCC chairman Rajendra Pachauri implied that there were only "about half a dozen" skeptical scientists left in the world. (LINK) Former Vice President Gore has claimed that scientists skeptical of climate change are akin to "flat Earth society members" and similar in number to those who "believe the moon landing was actually staged in a movie lot in Arizona." (LINK) & (LINK)


The distinguished scientists featured in this new report are experts in diverse fields, including: climatology; oceanography; geology; biology; glaciology; biogeography; meteorology; oceanography; economics; chemistry; mathematics; environmental sciences; engineering; physics and paleoclimatology. Some of those profiled have won Nobel Prizes for their outstanding contribution to their field of expertise and many shared a portion of the UN IPCC Nobel Peace Prize with Vice President Gore.



Additionally, these scientists hail from prestigious institutions worldwide, including: Harvard University; NASA; National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and the National centre for Atmospheric Research (NCAR); Massachusetts Institute of Technology; the UN IPCC; the Danish National Space centre; U.S. Department of Energy; Princeton University; the Environmental Protection Agency; University of Pennsylvania; Hebrew University of Jerusalem; the International Arctic Research Centre; the Pasteur Institute in Paris; the Belgian Weather Institute; Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute; the University of Helsinki; the National Academy of Sciences of the U.S., France, and Russia; the University of Pretoria; University of Notre Dame; Stockholm University; University of Melbourne; University of Columbia; the World Federation of Scientists; and the University of London.


The voices of many of these hundreds of scientists serve as a direct challenge to the often media-hyped "consensus" that the debate is "settled."



A May 2007 Senate report detailed scientists who had recently converted from believers in man-made global warming to skepticism. [See May 15, 2007 report: Climate Momentum Shifting: Prominent Scientists Reverse Belief in Man-made Global Warming - Now Skeptics: Growing Number of Scientists Convert to Skeptics After Reviewing New Research – (LINK) ]


The report counters the claims made by the promoters of man-made global warming fears that the number of skeptical scientists is dwindling.


Examples of "consensus" claims made by promoters of man-made climate fears:


Former Vice President Al Gore (November 5, 2007): "There are still people who believe that the Earth is flat." (LINK) Gore also compared global warming skeptics to people who 'believe the moon landing was actually staged in a movie lot in Arizona' (June 20, 2006 - LINK)


CNN's Miles O'Brien (July 23, 2007): The scientific debate is over." "We're done." O'Brien also declared on CNN on February 9, 2006 that scientific skeptics of man-made catastrophic global warming "are bought and paid for by the fossil fuel industry, usually." (LINK)


On July 27, 2006, Associated Press reporter Seth Borenstein described a scientist as "one of the few remaining scientists skeptical of the global warming harm caused by industries that burn fossil fuels." (LINK)

Dr. Rajendra Pachauri, Chairman of the IPCC view on the number of skeptical scientists as quoted on Feb. 20, 2003: "About 300 years ago, a Flat Earth Society was founded by those who did not believe the world was round. That society still exists; it probably has about a dozen members." (LINK)

Agence France-Press (AFP Press) article (December 4, 2007): The article noted that a prominent skeptic "finds himself increasingly alone in his claim that climate change poses no imminent threat to the planet."



Andrew Dessler in the eco-publication Grist Magazine (November 21, 2007): "While some people claim there are lots of skeptical climate scientists out there, if you actually try to find one, you keep turning up the same two dozen or so (e.g., Singer, Lindzen, Michaels, Christy, etc., etc.). These skeptics are endlessly recycled by the denial machine, so someone not paying close attention might think there are lots of them out there -- but that's not the case. (LINK)



The Washington Post asserted on May 23, 2006 that there were only "a handful of skeptics" of man-made climate fears. (LINK)



ABC News Global Warming Reporter Bill Blakemore reported on August 30, 2006: "After extensive searches, ABC News has found no such [scientific] debate" on global warming. (LINK)



# #



Brief highlights of the report featuring over 400 international scientists:


Israel: Dr. Nathan Paldor, Professor of Dynamical Meteorology and Physical Oceanography at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem has authored almost 70 peer-reviewed studies and won several awards. "First, temperature changes, as well as rates of temperature changes (both increase and decrease) of magnitudes similar to that reported by IPCC to have occurred since the Industrial revolution (about 0.8C in 150 years or even 0.4C in the last 35 years) have occurred in Earth's climatic history. There's nothing special about the recent rise!"



Russia: Russian scientist Dr. Oleg Sorochtin of the Institute of Oceanology at the Russian Academy of Sciences has authored more than 300 studies, nine books, and a 2006 paper titled "The Evolution and the Prediction of Global Climate Changes on Earth." "Even if the concentration of 'greenhouse gases' double man would not perceive the temperature impact," Sorochtin wrote.



Spain: Anton Uriarte, a professor of Physical Geography at the University of the Basque Country in Spain and author of a book on the paleoclimate, rejected man-made climate fears in 2007. "There's no need to be worried. It's very interesting to study [climate change], but there's no need to be worried," Uriate wrote.





Netherlands: Atmospheric scientist Dr. Hendrik Tennekes, a scientific pioneer in the development of numerical weather prediction and former director of research at The Netherlands' Royal National Meteorological Institute, and an internationally recognized expert in atmospheric boundary layer processes, "I find the Doomsday picture Al Gore is painting – a six-meter sea level rise, fifteen times the IPCC number – entirely without merit," Tennekes wrote. "I protest vigorously the idea that the climate reacts like a home heating system to a changed setting of the thermostat: just turn the dial, and the desired temperature will soon be reached."



Brazil: Chief Meteorologist Eugenio Hackbart of the MetSul Meteorologia Weather centre in Sao Leopoldo – Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil declared himself a skeptic. "The media is promoting an unprecedented hyping related to global warming. The media and many scientists are ignoring very important facts that point to a natural variation in the climate system as the cause of the recent global warming," Hackbart wrote on May 30, 2007.



France: Climatologist Dr. Marcel Leroux, former professor at Université Jean Moulin and director of the Laboratory of Climatology, Risks, and Environment in Lyon, is a climate skeptic. Leroux wrote a 2005 book titled Global Warming – Myth or Reality? - The Erring Ways of Climatology. "Day after day, the same mantra - that 'the Earth is warming up' - is churned out in all its forms. As 'the ice melts' and 'sea level rises,' the Apocalypse looms ever nearer! Without realizing it, or perhaps without wishing to, the average citizen in bamboozled, lobotomized, lulled into mindless ac­ceptance. ... Non-believers in the greenhouse scenario are in the position of those long ago who doubted the existence of God ... fortunately for them, the Inquisition is no longer with us!"



Norway: Geologist/Geochemist Dr. Tom V. Segalstad, a professor and head of the Geological Museum at the University of Oslo and formerly an expert reviewer with the UN IPCC: "It is a search for a mythical CO2 sink to explain an immeasurable CO2 lifetime to fit a hypothetical CO2 computer model that purports to show that an impossible amount of fossil fuel burning is heating the atmosphere. It is all a fiction."



Finland: Dr. Boris Winterhalter, retired Senior Marine Researcher of the Geological Survey of Finland and former professor of marine geology at University of Helsinki, criticized the media for what he considered its alarming climate coverage. "The effect of solar winds on cosmic radiation has just recently been established and, furthermore, there seems to be a good correlation between cloudiness and variations in the intensity of cosmic radiation. Here we have a mechanism which is a far better explanation to variations in global climate than the attempts by IPCC to blame it all on anthropogenic input of greenhouse gases. "



Germany: Paleoclimate expert Augusto Mangini of the University of Heidelberg in Germany, criticized the UN IPCC summary. "I consider the part of the IPCC report, which I can really judge as an expert, i.e. the reconstruction of the paleoclimate, wrong," Mangini noted in an April 5, 2007 article. He added: "The earth will not die."



Canada: IPCC 2007 Expert Reviewer Madhav Khandekar, a Ph.D meteorologist, a scientist with the Natural Resources Stewardship Project who has over 45 years experience in climatology, meteorology and oceanography, and who has published nearly 100 papers, reports, book reviews and a book on Ocean Wave Analysis and Modeling: "To my dismay, IPCC authors ignored all my comments and suggestions for major changes in the FOD (First Order Draft) and sent me the SOD (Second Order Draft) with essentially the same text as the FOD. None of the authors of the chapter bothered to directly communicate with me (or with other expert reviewers with whom I communicate on a regular basis) on many issues that were raised in my review. This is not an acceptable scientific review process."



Czech Republic: Czech-born U.S. climatologist Dr. George Kukla, a research scientist with the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at University of Columbia expressed climate skepticism in 2007. "The only thing to worry about is the damage that can be done by worrying. Why are some scientists worried? Perhaps because they feel that to stop worrying may mean to stop being paid," Kukla told Gelf Magazine on April 24, 2007.



India: One of India's leading geologists, B.P. Radhakrishna, President of the Geological Society of India, expressed climate skepticism in 2007. "We appear to be overplaying this global warming issue as global warming is nothing new. It has happened in the past, not once but several times, giving rise to glacial-interglacial cycles."



USA: Climatologist Robert Durrenberger, past president of the American Association of State Climatologists, and one of the climatologists who gathered at Woods Hole to review the National Climate Program Plan in July, 1979: "Al Gore brought me back to the battle and prompted me to do renewed research in the field of climatology. And because of all the misinformation that Gore and his army have been spreading about climate change I have decided that 'real' climatologists should try to help the public understand the nature of the problem."



Italy: Internationally renowned scientist Dr. Antonio Zichichi, president of the World Federation of Scientists and a retired Professor of Advanced Physics at the University of Bologna in Italy, who has published over 800 scientific papers: "Significant new peer-reviewed research has cast even more doubt on the hypothesis of dangerous human-caused global warming."



New Zealand: IPCC reviewer and climate researcher Dr. Vincent Gray, an expert reviewer on every single draft of the IPCC reports going back to 1990 and author of The Greenhouse Delusion: A Critique of "Climate Change 2001: "The [IPCC] 'Summary for Policymakers' might get a few readers, but the main purpose of the report is to provide a spurious scientific backup for the absurd claims of the worldwide environmentalist lobby that it has been established scientifically that increases in carbon dioxide are harmful to the climate. It just does not matter that this ain't so."



South Africa: Dr. Kelvin Kemm, formerly a scientist at South Africa's Atomic Energy Corporation who holds degrees in nuclear physics and mathematics: "The global-warming mania continues with more and more hype and less and less thinking. With religious zeal, people look for issues or events to blame on global warming."



Poland: Physicist Dr. Zbigniew Jaworowski, Chairman of the Central Laboratory for the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Radiological Protection in Warsaw: ""We thus find ourselves in the situation that the entire theory of man-made global warming—with its repercussions in science, and its important consequences for politics and the global economy—is based on ice core studies that provided a false picture of the atmospheric CO2 levels."



Australia: Prize-wining Geologist Dr. Ian Plimer, a professor of Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of Adelaide in Australia: "There is new work emerging even in the last few weeks that shows we can have a very close correlation between the temperatures of the Earth and supernova and solar radiation."



Britain: Dr. Richard Courtney, a UN IPCC expert reviewer and a UK-based climate and atmospheric science consultant: "To date, no convincing evidence for AGW (anthropogenic global warming) has been discovered. And recent global climate behavior is not consistent with AGW model predictions."



China: Chinese Scientists Say C02 Impact on Warming May Be 'Excessively Exaggerated' – Scientists Lin Zhen-Shan's and Sun Xian's 2007 study published in the peer-reviewed journal Meteorology and Atmospheric Physics: "Although the CO2 greenhouse effect on global climate change is unsuspicious, it could have been excessively exaggerated." Their study asserted that "it is high time to reconsider the trend of global climate change."



Denmark: Space physicist Dr. Eigil Friis-Christensen is the director of the Danish National Space Centre, a member of the space research advisory committee of the Swedish National Space Board, a member of a NASA working group, and a member of the European Space Agency who has authored or co-authored around 100 peer-reviewed papers and chairs the Institute of Space Physics: "The sun is the source of the energy that causes the motion of the atmosphere and thereby controls weather and climate. Any change in the energy from the sun received at the Earth's surface will therefore affect climate."





Belgium: Climate scientist Luc Debontridder of the Belgium Weather Institute's Royal Meteorological Institute (RMI) co-authored a study in August 2007 which dismissed a decisive role of CO2 in global warming: "CO2 is not the big bogeyman of climate change and global warming. "Not CO2, but water vapor is the most important greenhouse gas. It is responsible for at least 75 % of the greenhouse effect. This is a simple scientific fact, but Al Gore's movie has hyped CO2 so much that nobody seems to take note of it."



Sweden: Geologist Dr. Wibjorn Karlen, professor emeritus of the Department of Physical Geography and Quaternary Geology at Stockholm University, critiqued the Associated Press for hyping promoting climate fears in 2007. "Another of these hysterical views of our climate. Newspapers should think about the damage they are doing to many persons, particularly young kids, by spreading the exaggerated views of a human impact on climate."



USA: Dr. David Wojick is a UN IPCC expert reviewer, who earned his PhD in Philosophy of Science and co-founded the Department of Engineering and Public Policy at Carnegie-Mellon University: "In point of fact, the hypothesis that solar variability and not human activity is warming the oceans goes a long way to explain the puzzling idea that the Earth's surface may be warming while the atmosphere is not. The GHG (greenhouse gas) hypothesis does not do this." Wojick added: "The public is not well served by this constant drumbeat of false alarms fed by computer models manipulated by advocates."



# # #



Background: Only 52 Scientists Participated in UN IPCC Summary

The over 400 skeptical scientists featured in this new report outnumber by nearly eight times the number of scientists who participated in the 2007 UN IPCC Summary for Policymakers. The notion of "hundreds" or "thousands" of UN scientists agreeing to a scientific statement does not hold up to scrutiny. (See report debunking "consensus" LINK) Recent research by Australian climate data analyst Dr. John McLean revealed that the IPCC's peer-review process for the Summary for Policymakers leaves much to be desired. (LINK)

Proponents of man-made global warming like to note how the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) and the American Meteorological Society (AMS) have issued statements endorsing the so-called "consensus" view that man is driving global warming. But both the NAS and AMS never allowed member scientists to directly vote on these climate statements. Essentially, only two dozen or so members on the governing boards of these institutions produced the "consensus" statements. This report gives a voice to the rank-and-file scientists who were shut out of the process. (LINK)

The most recent attempt to imply there was an overwhelming scientific "consensus" in favor of man-made global warming fears came in December 2007 during the UN climate conference in Bali. A letter signed by only 215 scientists urged the UN to mandate deep cuts in carbon dioxide emissions by 2050. But absent from the letter were the signatures of these alleged "thousands" of scientists. (See AP article: - LINK )


UN IPCC chairman Rajendra Pachauri urged the world at the December 2007 UN climate conference in Bali, Indonesia to "Please listen to the voice of science."


The science has continued to grow loud and clear in 2007. In addition to the growing number of scientists expressing skepticism, an abundance of recent peer-reviewed studies have cast considerable doubt about man-made global warming fears. A November 3, 2007 peer-reviewed study found that "solar changes significantly alter climate." (LINK) A December 2007 peer-reviewed study recalculated and halved the global average surface temperature trend between 1980 – 2002. (LINK) Another new study found the Medieval Warm Period "0.3C warmer than 20th century" (LINK)


A peer-reviewed study by a team of scientists found that "warming is naturally caused and shows no human influence." (LINK) – Another November 2007 peer-reviewed study in the journal Physical Geography found "Long-term climate change is driven by solar insolation changes." (LINK ) These recent studies were in addition to the abundance of peer-reviewed studies earlier in 2007. - See "New Peer-Reviewed Scientific Studies Chill Global Warming Fears" (LINK )


With this new report of profiling 400 skeptical scientists, the world can finally hear the voices of the "silent majority" of scientists.





LINK til Senats rapport: Over 400 Prominent Scientists Disputed Man-Made Global Warming Claims in 2007

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

Her taler vi klima forskere, nobelpristager og videnskabmænd med tusindevis af videnskablige artikler i deres erfaringsgrundlag.

Jeg synes det er på tide at nogle begynder at tage disse ting alvorligt, også politisk.
27-12-2007 15:50
Thomas Meinert Larsen

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På overfladen kunne denne lange liste af skeptiske forskere tolkes som om at der er en "silent majority of skeptical scientists".

Bemærk dog, at kritikken fra disse i rapporten listede personer oftest består af:
1) Mindre/moderat (og ofte uklar/ukonkret) kritik af IPCCs rapporter for teknikaliteter i deres rapporter, herunder fx. manglende inddragen af andre mulige klima-påvirkende faktorer (fx. solaktivitet eller andet).
2) Kraftig (og givetvis berettiget) kritik af den ofte overdrevne/overdramatiserede fremlægning af klima-effekterne som diverse medier/meningsdannere fremfører.

Går man imidlertid blot en smule "i dybden" med kilderne, så gælder det at for mange (hvis ikke for langt de fleste) kritikere gælder, at de reelt ikke kan tilbagevise den meget solide videnskabelige evidens som ligger bag IPCCs rapporter, og at de (fx. for Eigil Friis-Christensen og Henrik Svensmark, begge Danmarks Rumcenter, Niels Bohr Instituttet som åbenbart er anført i denne liste som "klima-skeptiske") medgiver at CO2 udledningerne utvivlsomt er medvirkende faktorer til temperatur-stigning.

Denne "senats-rapport" rykker således ikke i alt væsentlighed ved det forhold at (hæderlige) klima-forskere udtrykker en bred grad af "consensus" i forhold til IPCCs rapporter.smiley


Tidligere brugernavn: Denklimabekymrede
27-12-2007 17:23RE: Kejserens skæg!
Kosmos

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Denne "senats-rapport" rykker således ikke i alt væsentlighed ved det forhold at (hæderlige) klima-forskere udtrykker en bred grad af "consensus" i forhold til IPCCs rapporter

- enig! Såfremt du i 'bred grad af "consensus"' lægger, at skeptikerne ikke frakender 'drivhusgasser' (især menneskeskabte) enhver form for klimaindflydelse, da har du ret - og hvad så?: Det er vel lissom omkring den kvantitative vurdering af forholdet mellem 'naturlige' og 'menneskabte' klimafaktorer uenigheden helt fundamentalt består, ikke sandt? smiley
Redigeret d. 27-12-2007 18:35
27-12-2007 21:58
Thomas Meinert Larsen

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det skal forstås som ........(hæderlige) klima-forskere udtrykker en bred grad af "consensus" i forhold til IPCCs rapporter, herunder også IPCCs konklusion: "Most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely [.i.e. probability greater than 90%] due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations." ('Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis,' Summary for Policymakers, IPCC, February 2007, page 10; http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/wg1/ar4-wg1-spm.pdf)


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Redigeret d. 27-12-2007 22:05
27-12-2007 23:24
Kosmos

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...herunder også IPCCs konklusion

- i så fald er jeg uenig i påstanden om 'bred enighed': Da er fx. Svensmark/Friis Christensen ikke længere 'med på vognen' (hvis jeg da ellers tolker dem nogenlunde korrekt?).

Og det er der såmænd mange andre, der heller ikke er! smiley
28-12-2007 10:15
Christoffer Bugge Harder

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Hvad folk mener uden at kunne underbygge det med videnskab, er uendelig uinteressant - lister med så og så mange skeptikere, der ikke kan lide Kyoto o.lign, er ikke noget, man behøver at tage alvorligt. En meget forhenværende forsker, Tim Ball, mener f.eks, at det er blevet koldere siden 1940, hvorimod termometrene, både på Jorden og i troposfæren, kan fortælle, at det er blevet varmere. Her forekommer det mig rimeligt, at de seriøse forskere opfordrer Ball om at koncentrere sig om sit otium.

Det eneste interessante spørgsmål i forbindelse med "enighed" er i hvilket omfang, at denne enighed afspejler den faktuelle dokumentation.

- kun et mindretal af de nævnte skeptikere er forskere
- endnu færre er aktive forskere
- næsten ingen af disse har støttet deres skepsis op med videnskabelige indvendinger
- at disse meget få videnskabelige indvendinger i høj grad vedrører relativt marginale usikkerheder (omfatter 95%-intervallet for sensitiviteten 6 grader, skal isafsmeltning medtages i beregningen af vandstandsstigningerne osv.), eller
- er i stejl modstrid med et væld af empirisk forskning (Lindzens iris-effekt, solpletter som forklaring på den nuværende opvarmning)

- at deres virvar af udokumenterede påstande er indbyrdes modstridende (Tim Ball mener, at det er blevet koldere siden 1940, Lindzen anerkender co2s rolle for den nuværende temperaturstigning, men tror ikke temperaturen vil stige så meget mere, mens Svensmark vil forklare store dele af stigningen med sine solpletter, og McKittrick (der i øvrigt slet ikke er forsker) ikke mener, at der overhovedet findes en global temperatur)

kan man roligt konkludere, at disse indvendinger kun i meget beskedent omfang har med seriøs videnskab at gøre. Bortset fra måske Svensmarks og Shaviv kan samtlige disse indvendinger helt uproblematisk ledes tilbage til modstand mod co2-reguleringer.

Der eksisterer således ikke seriøs videnskabelig uenighed af betydning. Det er sådan set ikke noget, vi kan sidde her og være enige eller uenige i - det er blot en kendsgerning, som man må erkende, hvis man ønsker at forholde sig til den virkelige verden.

Det, vi så kan diskutere, er, hvad man så skal drage af konklusioner på kendsgerningerne. Her er der rigtignok stor og legitim uenighed - fair nok, men så bør man også spille ærligt ud og ikke forsøge at maskere sin politiske uenighed et tyndt videnskabeligt dække.


Man har lov til at være faktaresistent benægter i et frit land - man kan bare ikke forvente at blive mødt med respekt for det.
Redigeret d. 28-12-2007 11:05
28-12-2007 11:52RE: Verden iflg. CBH:
Kosmos

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Der eksisterer således ikke seriøs videnskabelig uenighed af betydning

- nej, 'tihvertifald' ikke 'af betydning' iht. CBHs opfattelse! smiley

deres virvar af udokumenterede påstande er indbyrdes modstridende

- ta' dig nu lige sammen!: Du kan da godt få endnu et par pejorativer klemt ind i dén sætning, hvis du anstrenger dig en anelse mere! smiley

For mit eget vedkommende kan jeg nu ikke lige gennemskue, hvilke lugubre interesser, fx. professor Ole Humlum fra Universitetet i Oslo repræsenterer, når han - baseret på konkrete registreringer af temperaturudviklingen - skriver:

None of the existing global climate models have, however, forecasted the apparent temperature break around 1998. In a scientific context the present temperature break therefore is a classic example of what is known as empirical falsification, disproving the hypothesis on the dominant influence of greenhouse gasses on the global temperature.

Redigeret d. 28-12-2007 11:55
28-12-2007 14:05
Christoffer Bugge Harder

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ta' dig nu lige sammen!: Du kan da godt få endnu et par pejorativer klemt ind i dén sætning, hvis du anstrenger dig en anelse mere!


Helt sikkert (du skulle bare vide.... smiley).....

- men efter min mening er det ikke pejorativer, men analytiske karakteristika. Hvis du er uenig, ville jeg gerne høre, om du kunne redegøre for, om der var noget forkert i min sætning?

Jeg ville nemlig stadig meget gerne høre din forklaring på, præcis hvad der efter din mening skal tages som seriøse indvendinger jvfr. dine skeptikerlister. Er det

- Jaworowski, der ikke mener, at co2-niveauet overhovedet er særlig højt, men anerkender opvarmningen?
- Ball, der mener, at det er blevet koldere siden 1940, men anerkender det menneskeligt forårsagede co2-niveau?
- Lindzen, der anerkender både opvarmning og co2, men ikke tror, at sensitiviteten er så høj?
- Lubos Motl, der ikke mener, at der er meget mere opvarmning i vente, fordi forsinkelsen mht. opvarmningen af havene er mindre, end IPCC mener?
- Svensmark/Shaviv, der vil forklare både betydelige dele af opvarmningen med kosmisk indflydelse samt bortforklare den manglende sammenhæng i de sidste 20-30 år med større forsinkelser i havopvarmningen, end IPCC regner med?

Det forekommer mig, at "indbyrdes modstridende" er en fuldstændig objektiv betegnelse for bare dette beskedne udpluk af skeptiske påstande?

Og mht. dokumentationen, så er der mig bekendt - bortset fra Shaviv - intet af dette, der er offentliggjort i videnskabelige tidsskrifter, ligesom selv Shavivs dokumentation foreløbig er meget enkeltstående og kraftigt kritiseret.


Er det så ikke en korrekt opsummering af situationen at sige om det ovenstående:


Deres virvar af udokumenterede påstande er indbyrdes modstridende.


???

Vi behøver slet ikke diskutere lugubre interesser, vi kan bare forholde os til d´herrers egne påstande. Jeg vil stadig meget gerne høre dit svar.

P.S: Helst ikke noget med, at alt-andet-end-IPCC-er-uvidenskabeligt-i-dine-øjne, vel? "Min definition" på videnskab er helt ukontroversiel og anvendt på samtlige verdens universiteter.


Man har lov til at være faktaresistent benægter i et frit land - man kan bare ikke forvente at blive mødt med respekt for det.
Redigeret d. 28-12-2007 14:06
28-12-2007 19:05RE: Citér retvisende, CBH!
Kosmos

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Jeg mener, at du forvansker de holdninger, du vil tillægge (nogle af) skeptikerne: Jeg forsøgte således at finde evidens for, hvad du fx. tilskriver Timothy Ball:

Ball, der mener, at det er blevet koldere siden 1940, men anerkender det menneskeligt forårsagede co2-niveau?

- jeg fandt i et par nylige interviews fx. følgende:

Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. This proves that consensus is not a scientific fact. By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling

Det finder jeg ikke overensstemmende med din gengivelse: '...mener, at det er blevet koldere siden 1940...'

Man kan så diskutere rimeligheden af: 'the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling' - her foretrækker jeg Humlums konstatering af 'manglende stigning' siden 1998.

Dog er Ball ikke alene med påstanden om afkøling - jf. fx. Pielke Sr.:

3. In the last four years, the sea surface temperature average between 60N and 60S has cooled.


{Jeg faldt forresten i skyndingen over endnu et interessant Ball-interview! smiley}
28-12-2007 22:24
Christoffer Bugge Harder

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Jeg mener, at du forvansker de holdninger, du vil tillægge (nogle af) skeptikerne: Jeg forsøgte således at finde evidens for, hvad du fx. tilskriver Timothy Ball.


Jeg forvansker overhovedet intet, og jeg tillægger heller ingen nogen som helst holdninger, de ikke selv udtrykkeligt har erklæret offentligt i det ovenstående. Og du har åbenbart ikke forsøgt at lede særlig ihærdigt efter evidens for, hvad Tim Ball mener?

I am in agreement with Sherwood and Craig Idso that there is no warming evident in the record since 1930.


og

Since 1940 and from 1940 until 1980, even the surface record shows cooling. The argument is that there has been warming since then but, in fact, almost all of that is due to what is called the "urban heat island" effect – that is, that the weather stations are around the edge of cities and the cities expanded out and distorted the record.


Fra wikipedia - og for mere kan du se her ellerher.

Dette finder jeg i fuld overensstemmelse med min gengivelse. Ja, jeg finder endda, at min gengivelse i forhold til Tim Balls første udmelding er for venlig.

Og jeg ser stadig frem til din redegørelse for, hvilke af dine skeptikere du tror på. For det kan da umuligt være alle de indbyrdes modstridende påstande på én gang, vel? Og hvordan forholder det sig med Balls og andres dokumentation efter din mening - du skylder snart et svar, synes du ikke? Du kan ligesom ikke blive ved med at citere løsrevne navne som "appel til autoritet", stikke halen mellem benene, når deres påstande bliver konfronteret med kendsgerningerne, og alligevel hive de samme navne frem igen i næste indlæg. Kom nu med noget substantielt eller indstil indvendingerne.

P.S: Trends over de sidste 5-6 år er meget lidt overbevisende - uanset, om de viser isafsmeltning eller byopvarmning.


Man har lov til at være faktaresistent benægter i et frit land - man kan bare ikke forvente at blive mødt med respekt for det.
Redigeret d. 28-12-2007 22:26
29-12-2007 21:49
Kosmos

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Jeg ser faktisk intet problem ved, at Tim Ball i et interview (fra 2004) med det lokale hønseavlertidende {"Frontier Centre for Public Policy"} sætter sagen lidt på spidsen - sandsynligvis efter devisen '(lidt) overdrivelse fremmer forståelsen': Hans ærinde er jo klart at provokere til debat, idet han finder, at den brede offentlighed (for) bevidstløst annammer de statsautoriserede dommedagsprofetier!
Og konkret havde (og har) han jo en pointe i, at UHI-effekten er stærkt omdiskuteret (vælg 'UHI' i menuen tv.), mens havtemperaturerne mellem 60 gr. N og 60 gr. S er aftagende

Og jeg ser stadig frem til din redegørelse for, hvilke af dine skeptikere du tror på

- jeg ser nu intet behov for at vælge mellem 'mine skeptikere': Foreløbig vil jeg blot holde mig til de nøgne kendsgerninger:

For the past decade the world has not warmed. Global warming has stopped. It's not a viewpoint or a sceptic's inaccuracy. It's an observational fact.... So we are led to the conclusion that either the hypothesis of carbon dioxide induced global warming holds but its effects are being modified in what seems to be an improbable though not impossible way, or, and this really is heresy according to some, the working hypothesis does not stand the test of data.

- eller som Ole Humlum udtrykker det (vælg 'Global Temperature' i menuen tv.):

None of the existing global climate models have, however, forecasted the apparent temperature break around 1998. In a scientific context the present temperature break therefore is a classic example of what is known as empirical falsification, disproving the hypothesis on the dominant influence of greenhouse gasses on the global temperature.


Og så kan vi vel passende runde af for i aften med dette 'sprit-nye' link! smiley
Redigeret d. 29-12-2007 23:50
30-12-2007 16:19
Christoffer Bugge Harder

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Jeg ser faktisk intet problem ved, at Tim Ball i et interview (fra 2004) med det lokale hønseavlertidende {"Frontier Centre for Public Policy"} sætter sagen lidt på spidsen - sandsynligvis efter devisen '(lidt) overdrivelse fremmer forståelsen': Hans ærinde er jo klart at provokere til debat, idet han finder, at den brede offentlighed (for) bevidstløst annammer de statsautoriserede dommedagsprofetier!


Hvad du ser og ikke ser et problem ved, skal jeg afholde mig fra at kommentere her, men nu var det ligesom ikke det, vi talte om, vel? Du påstod, at jeg citerede Ball forkert, og du kan vel vanskeligt påstå andet end, at mit citat var fuldstændigt korrekt - ja, han siger endda siden 1930 og ikke 1940?

At du nu vil forsøge at dreje snakken over på UHI-effekter smager ligesom lidt af udenomssnak, ikke?

Men bortset fra det: Selv hvis vi accepterer Michaels og McKittricks analyse af UHI-effekten(og jeg tror umiddelbart ikke Michaels over en dørtærskel), står vi stadig med en betydelig opvarmning på 0,2-3 grader, dokumenteret af både overflade- og satellitmålinger.

Hvordan vil du få det til at passe med Balls påstande om afkøling og at hele den målte opvarmning siden 1980 skyldes UHI-effekten?

Hvorfor egentlig ikke bare pakke Ball væk og erklære ligeud, at han ikke ved, hvad han taler om, og at han nok ikke har noget af interesse at bidrage til diskussionen med.......?

Hvis du ikke ser noget behov for at vælge mellem dine skeptikere, men tror på alle deres forskellige påstande, kan du så redegøre nærmere for, hvordan de citerede udsagn:


- Jaworowski, der ikke mener, at co2-niveauet overhovedet er særlig højt, men anerkender opvarmningen?
- Ball, der mener, at det er blevet koldere siden 1940, men anerkender det menneskeligt forårsagede co2-niveau?
- Lindzen, der anerkender både opvarmning og co2, men ikke tror, at sensitiviteten er så høj?
- Lubos Motl, der ikke mener, at der er meget mere opvarmning i vente, fordi forsinkelsen mht. opvarmningen af havene er mindre, end IPCC mener?
- Svensmark/Shaviv, der vil forklare både betydelige dele af opvarmningen med kosmisk indflydelse samt bortforklare den manglende sammenhæng i de sidste 20-30 år med større forsinkelser i havopvarmningen, end IPCC regner med?


kan bringes til at forliges? Jeg kan nemlig ikke se, hvordan man kan tro på alt dette uden at rode sig ud i mindst tre-fire krasse selvmodsigelser af den alvorlige slags? Men det vil du utvivlsomt forklare mig, ikke? smiley


Man har lov til at være faktaresistent benægter i et frit land - man kan bare ikke forvente at blive mødt med respekt for det.
31-12-2007 10:50RE: No problem, CBH!
Kosmos

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og du kan vel vanskeligt påstå andet end, at mit citat var fuldstændigt korrekt - ja, han siger endda siden 1930 og ikke 1940?

- du vil gerne ha' ret - og det får du så (på dette punkt!): Jeg burde selvfølgelig have googlet på 100% af, hvad hr. Ball (som jeg iøvrigt aldrig tidligere har intereseret mig for!) siden tidernes morgen monne have ytret! smiley Det var jeg for doven til, og således overså jeg dét citat, du tillægger så central betydning - beklager! smiley

jeg tror umiddelbart ikke Michaels over en dørtærskel

- nå, det var da ellers et noget summarisk 'argument'! smiley

Hvorfor egentlig ikke bare pakke Ball væk og erklære ligeud, at han ikke ved, hvad han taler om, og at han nok ikke har noget af interesse at bidrage til diskussionen med.......?

- men det har han da efter min mening i høj grad (tak fordi du henledte min opmærksomhed på ham!): Han fremhæver dén 'åndelige ensretning', som hele miséren omkring politisk styring af videnskabelig forskning er det begrædelige resultat af! smiley

Men det vil du utvivlsomt forklare mig, ikke?

- næh! Faktisk vurderer jeg ikke, at en eneste af dem 'har 100% ret' (hvis man da overhovedet kan ha' det i blot nogenlunde komplekse spørgsmål?). Det er klart, at hvis én konklusion hviler på en præmis om fx. høj oceanisk varmekapacitet, mens en anden konklusion hviler på en præmis om lav oceanisk varmekapacitet - da kan ikke begge konklusioner opretholdes/underbygges (på denne vis, 'tihvertifald'!). Men såfremt du undersøgte revl og krat af, hvad samtlige bidragydere til 'IPPC-processen' har publiceret, ville du da givetvis også være i stand til at eftervise indbyrdes uforenelige synspunkter, hvilket formentligt endda også en sjælden gang(?) ville være tilfældet for den enkelte forsker, set over et passende tidsrum.

Men skeptikerne har alle det til fælles, at de ser kritisk på store dele af IPCC-outputtet - og deri mener jeg, de har ret, som fx. formuleret af Pielke Sr. (et al.)

Og hermed ønsker jeg et Godt Nytår for jer alle - med håbet om (mange) flere aktive debattører i 2008! smiley
31-12-2007 11:54
Christoffer Bugge Harder

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Jeg burde selvfølgelig have googlet på 100% af, hvad hr. Ball (som jeg iøvrigt aldrig tidligere har intereseret mig for!) siden tidernes morgen monne have ytret!


Det siger jeg ikke, at du burde - men når du nu efter eget udsagn aldrig har interesseret dig for Tim Ball, skulle du måske liige kigge lidt grundigere efter eller spørge, hvor jeg havde citatet fra, inden du straks beskyldte mig for citatfusk, ikke?

Men ja, jeg tillægger da Tim Balls udtalelse om, at det er blevet koldere siden 1940, central betydning for min henvisning til, at det efter hans mening er blevet koldere siden 1940............

- men det har han da efter min mening i høj grad (tak fordi du henledte min opmærksomhed på ham!): Han fremhæver dén 'åndelige ensretning', som hele miséren omkring politisk styring af videnskabelig forskning er det begrædelige resultat af!


Videnskaben er fuld af "åndelig ensretning" i den forstand, at man ikke bare kan mene, hvad man vil, og forvente at blive taget alvorligt - man er nødt til at rette ind efter de fysiske realiteter. Evolutionsbiologien, mit felt, er så at sige "åndeligt ensrettet" efter evolutionsteorien, fordi alle kendsgerningerne helt entydigt peger på, at denne teori er korrekt. "Intelligent design"-bevægelsen synes også, at det er rigtig ubehageligt, at de ikke bliver taget alvorligt, bare fordi de ikke har nogen argumenter eller data, der støtter deres holdning, men sådan er
videnskab nu engang. Geografien og astronomien er også så frygtelig ensrettede, at man ikke bliver taget alvorligt, hvis man påstår, at Jorden er flad, eller at Månen er lavet af grøn ost.

På samme måde er klimavidenskaben ensrettet efter, at alle termometre både på satellitterne og jordoverfladen helt entydigt viser opvarmning siden 1940, uanset hvad man trækker fra af UHI-effekter eller hvordan man i øvrigt vender og drejer det. Hvis Ball synes det er åndelig ensretning, at man ikke bliver taget alvorligt, når man benægter termometrene eller påstår, at Månen er lavet af grøn ost eller at Jorden er flad, så må det være hans eget problem. Åndelig ensretning af den slags, der sorterer åbenlyst nonsens fra, er helt nødvendigt for videnskabelige fremskridt.

Faktisk vurderer jeg ikke, at en eneste af dem 'har 100% ret' (hvis man da overhovedet kan ha' det i blot nogenlunde komplekse spørgsmål?).


Det har du helt ret i. Det er meget nemmere, videnskabeligt set, at afgøre, om noget er forkert, end om det er rigtigt. Men dit problem er, at flere af dem vurderet på det foreliggende grundlag, beviseligt tager 100% fejl - og det er faktisk en ret enkel sag af afgøre i mange tilfælde.

Det er blevet varmere siden 1940. Det lader sig simpelthen ikke rationelt bestride. Og Co2-stigningen er menneskeskabt. Det er igen helt entydigt dokumenteret på linie med Tyngdeloven.

Folk, der påstår andet, kan uden videre rubriceres i samme kategori som dem, der tror, at Jorden er flad. Der er ingen grund til at lade den slags idioter spilde seriøse forskeres tid. Derfor beder IPCC dem naturligvis også om at smutte hen og lege et andet sted - og hvad er egentlig problemet i det?

Men såfremt du undersøgte revl og krat af, hvad samtlige bidragydere til 'IPPC-processen' har publiceret, ville du da givetvis også være i stand til at eftervise indbyrdes uforenelige synspunkter, hvilket formentligt endda også en sjælden gang(?) ville være tilfældet for den enkelte forsker, set over et passende tidsrum.


Ja, men det handler om ting, hvor der rent faktisk er betydelig videnskabelig usikkerhed og tilsyneladende modstridende data - det er helt legitimt. Det er f.eks højst usikkert, hvor meget vandstanden vil stige, hvordan og hvor meget indlandsis, der smelter eller om den arktiske havis vil smelte indenfor 10, 30 eller 50 år. Og hvor der eksisterer sådanne usikkerheder, lader IPCC da også være med at udtale sig med nogen større sikkerhed. Der er derimod ingen indbyrdes uoverensstemmelser omkring, at det bliver varmere, at det skyldes co2, og at det vil fortsætte, medmindre udslippet bringes under kontrol.

Og helt ærligt, Kosmos: Du kan da ikke i ramme alvor mene, at Tim Ball eller Jaworowski har krav på at blive taget alvorligt på dette grundlag?

Og hermed ønsker jeg et Godt Nytår for jer alle - med håbet om (mange) flere aktive debattører i 2008!


Her kan vi i det mindste være enige - både om det første og det andet! Godt nytår!


Man har lov til at være faktaresistent benægter i et frit land - man kan bare ikke forvente at blive mødt med respekt for det.




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